TV International with Hamid Taqvaee on the Arab Spring

TV International's Maryam Namazie interviews Hamid Taqvaee on the Arab Spring.



Below is the transcript of the interview.

On Arab Spring

Maryam Namzie: Hi! You’re watching TV International with Maryam Namazie.   In this week’s program we’re going to be discussing the Arab spring. We’ve got the brilliant Hamid Taqvaee in the studio with us this week to discuss this issue. Welcome Hamid Taqvaee.

Hamid Taqvaee: Thank you.

MN: Last week we talked about the 99 Percent in the protest world wide. Is the Arab Spring linked to what we’re seeing in Wall Street, in London, and across the world?

HT: Of course it is linked! First of all because the root of both movements is the same, and that’s the whole economical situation in the world: the economical crisis. One of the main slogans of the revolution in Egypt was bread, was the question of unemployment, the question of poverty and you see that the same thing is happening in the West now. That’s one thing that connects those two, the other thing is that even the form and the method of protest is very similar. I mean the whole idea of occupying Wall Street comes from Al-Tahrir Square in Egypt. And it’s not only Egypt and New York, of course. Every other places in the world we had that idea of occupying streets and claiming that streets belongs to us, you know. With idea of occupying comes idea of controll. We have to take controll, we people, we 99%, we have to take everything in our own hands, you know. That idea is a new idea you can say, and it is the basic idea in the Arab Spring, in the Middle East revolutions and in protests in the West. In Spain we had the same thing three months ago, in Paris we had the same thing, in Sol Square, people of Spain said streets belongs to us. It’s not simply a demonstration, it’s not one day protest and go home. It’s going out, come to the street and remain there. Take controll of the whole situation.

MN: It’s interesting when you talk about the similarities. There’s also been a lot of opposition to parliamentary democracy in protest that we see from Wall Street and across the world. Whereas the Arab Spring protesters often being portrayed in the media as pro-democracy movements and that’s often the lable that given to protesters...

HT: Yes, I know...

MN: Would you agree that the protesters are pro-democracy...?

HT: No, I don’t. I don’t think that you can call them pro-democracy as such. They are against dictatorship for sure, but it doesn’t mean necessarily that they are pro-democracy. They are pro-freedom. People want to be free but these days democracy identifies itself with parliament and elections. It’s not a very attractive idea overall, you know, because people in the Middle East think that: ok, say in Greece they had parliament, there was election, and you see the situation. Even in the West, in the US, in the Western Europe, parliaments are very busy with passing laws against people, you know, with the policy of cutting all the social services, and so on and so forth. So it’s not very attractive. Every Egyptian would think: parliament for what? Parliament to do what? Something like Greece? Spain? We want unemployment? We need austerity measures? Of course not. Fifty years ago we couldn't say that. In uprisings against dictators, like in the revolution that we had in Iran thirty something years ago, people wanted democracy as such. It made sense somehow. But these days nobody is for democracy.

MN: It seems though if you are not for parliamentary democracy then you’re not for people’s participation in society. That’s the image that’s been given. What would be an alternative then? iIf people aren’t able to vote what else they could do?  

HT: The alternative is taking shape already. The alternative is people with their committees, with their counciles. People are gathering in these sort of organizations in their protests everywhere. As I said before, with the idea of occupaying streets comes the idea of controlling the society. People saying we can do this. It’s possible. Especially with the new technology, with the Internet, with the social media, and so on people think that it’s doable, it’s possible. We can do that. We can take the controll in our own hands. As one of those activists in Sol Square in Madrid said “Our dream doesn’t come out from the ballot box”. It means that people know that it is not just the question of free election. Its a question of beeing free in every days life to decide about everything and to take controll of everything. And people know that parliament is not going to do that for them. Parliament is busy with saving bankers and do something with the capitalist bancrupsy in everywhere. So that situation brings with itself the idea of taking controll, taking everything in our own hands...

MN: But the right to vote is still important, doesn’t it? I mean people have died for the right to vote and even in the sense where they’re occupaying Wall Street, people are still voting .?..

HT: Yes, the right to vote. But look, there’s a difference between the direct democracy and parliamentary democracy. I mean you vote and you elect somebody to do something and you  think you are in charge or having control. That’s the second part which is missing, you know. In every parliamentary democracy, you elect some people for four years and you have no control whatsoever. They gone; they do what ever they want for four years...

MN: They do exactly what they said that they’re not gonna do...

HT: Yes, because they need your vote they say whatever you want and after election they do whatever they want! Election promises are equivalent with lies. They just lie or do whatever they need to do to just take your vote and then they go on with their own policies, the policies of those one percent. 99% elect some "one percent" parties or parliament members or whatever, and then they go on with their own policies and after four years people come out with that ok, it didn’t work, go for the other party which is the same almost with just new faces...

MN: Going back to this issue of people’s participation, revolution is one way in which people do participate. Some people though believe that its a failure. Revolutions are failure. They failed and they’re helping to actually bring Islamism to power, even in places where they didn’t have power in the Middle East and the Northern Africa. What would you say to that?

HT: Actually I think those revolutions are against Islamism as well, because Islamists have no role in them. You know, Islamism is a very well known movement and everybody knows what it is about. After September 11, we had Islamism in one pole, in one camp, and we had Neo-Cans and the militarism on the other, and everybody knows what they stand for. Islamism is for going back to Sharia laws, anti-Western values, or in fact anti-civilization tendencies, going back to "our own" culture, Arab culture or Islamic culture, women with Hijab with no rights at all, anti-Semitism ... that sort of thing. That’s Islamism. Political Islam is based on those goals and those values. But in those revolutions in Egypt, in Tunisia, in Syria there is no trace of such goals and tendencies. In Syria for example you have an uprising totally against Islamism, because Beshar al-Asad is a leader and a symbole of political Islam in the region. In Syria Islamism is in power. In Egypt, in Tunisia, in everywhre, in Lybia even, we have revolutions that are not about those values. Those revolutions have already declared that they are for freedom, they are for bread, they are for human dignity. So they have nothing to do with Islamism. I know that some Islamic groups, like the Islamic Republic of Iran, they try to say  these are an Islamic revolutions or revolutions in Islamic countries, revolution against the West, and that sort of thing. But people in the street don’t say that. We don’t see any slogan against the "Great Satan"  for example...

MN: But there’s a danger of Islamism taking power...

HT: Yes, always there is a danger. As far as Islamism is there as a political power, of course they do whatever they can to take power in those new situation that is created by revolution. But they had nothing to do with the revolution. Do you know what I mean? Moslem Brotherhood which was a very strong party in Egypt, even they had members in parliament in Mobarak’s time, in that revolution they are nowhere. You don’t see them at all. Of course, sometimes they make some comments or something, but people are not for, say, Sharia law in Egypt. You don’t see that trend, you don’t see that movement.

MN: Thank you very much. We will going to end here. If you have any comments on this, do contact us. I just want to end with something that a Tunisian was saying in a rally for secularism. They said we didn’t overthrow Bin-Ali who told us we couldn’t say a lot of things to have someone come on and tell us that the rule of God doesn’t allows to say other things, and that secularism is an important value that they fighting for, as Hamid Taqvaee says. Send us your comments. Hope to see you again next week. Until then have a good week.

october 28, 2011

Toward Socialism’s interview with Hamid Taqvaee

Leader of the Worker-Communist Party of Iran Regarding the Current Revolution in Tunisia *

Toward Socialism:

The events in Tunis started with a man burning himself to protest against his unemployment, humiliation, and his inability to make a living. How do you describe the unfolding huge demonstration that led to the escape of Ben Ali?

Hamid Taqvaee:

The man who protested by setting himself on fire was representing the majority of Tunisian people. The majority of people are facing unemployment, poverty, low wages and high prices, and the current uprising shows that people can not stand the status quo anymore. On the other hand, the people of Tunisia have been oppressed by a brutal and corrupt regime for 23 years. When a couple of weeks ago people found out about the multi billion wealth of the Ben Ali Family on WikiLeaks, it was the last straw. The majority of Tunisians like people of Iran, or any other country under a brutal dictatorship, have been hating their government and the existing regime for a long time but a revolution erupts under certain political conditions. In the case of Tunisia, unbearable poverty in contrast to the unimaginable wealth of the dictator and his gang provided those conditions. The revolution already succeeded in overthrowing Ben Ali, but it is only the beginning. The dictator has escaped but the dictatorship is still present. The revolution should, and it seems that it does, go forward to overthrow the whole regime.

Toward Socialism:

The revolution in Iran that occurred about 1.5 yeas ago and still expresses itself in different occasions has a similar nature: an eruption of a revolt of millions of people, young, women, intellectuals, workers, unemployed ... and so on, after the results of the "elections" were announced. Do you see a similarity between the events in Iran and the current one in Tunisia?

Hamid Taqvaee:

The people of Iran have been confronting a brutal dictatorship for more than three decades. In Iran like Tunisia people are facing poverty, unemployment, corruption of the government and all the authorities, lack of political freedom and civil liberties, persecution, arrest, torture and execution of opposition parties’ members, political activists, and even individuals who do not totally agree with the Supreme Leader, etc. The uprising of 2009 was a mass protest against these conditions. I think the present revolution in Tunisia as far as the immediate goals and demands of people are concerned, is very similar to the 2009 uprising in Iran. In both countries people are protesting against a corrupt and brutal regime and fighting for freedom, equality, prosperity and a decent life.

I think the present events in Tunisia will have a crucial impact on the political situation in Iran. You already can see slogans like "after Ben Ali, is Seid Ali's turn” on many Iranian internet sites and groups- referring to Seid Ali Khamenhei, the supreme leader of Islamic Republic in Iran.

Toward Socialism:

Now Ben Ali has escaped but the regime is still there. What do you say to the people of Tunisia? Is it over? If not then how they proceed?

Hamid Taqvaee:

Of course it is not over and people on the streets know that. That's the reason nobody accepted the interim government and Ghanochi, who himself is a left over of Ben Ali's gang, is facing the resignation of his ministers every other day. As I already mentioned the dictatorship, the regime, is still in place. The ruling class and reactionary forces, including Western powers and all governments in the Arab world, are trying to abort the revolution and are trying to save and keep in place as many parts of the state apparatus as they can. It is a classic case of reaction of anti revolutionary forces. The revolution can and should go on until the whole system is overthrown.

Toward Socialism:

What in your opinion are the basic demands of the people to any government that might replace the old one? Why are particular demands important for the people to defend at this juncture?

Hamid Taqvaee:

The very first and urgent goal of any revolution is to get rid of the old state and political system. All the authorities and individuals who took part in Ben Ali's dictatorship should be prosecuted and put on trial. They are criminals and have no legitimacy to be a part of a new government or take part in elections and so on. The revolution is against them and only by arresting these criminals and putting them on trial, can it go forward. Also all the reactionary laws and institutions should be abolished. All the political prisoners should be released. Other urgent demands of people are civil and political freedom, freedom of speech, press, assembly, strike and demonstration, abolition of capital punishment, abolition of discriminatory laws especially against women. As I mentioned before one of the main causes of the revolution is poverty and unemployment. So providing decent jobs and unemployment insurance for everybody who is ready to work is the immediate task of any government that wants the support of people. These are the minimum and basic demands of people and should be accepted by any government and also any political party in the opposition. These are the criteria people should use to differentiate between revolutionary and reactionary forces in today's political situation in Tunisia.

Toward Socialism:

Do you expect Islamists to come to power as an alternative? What are your ideas in this regard? What do you say to people who see the Islamists mobilizing in this vacuum and call for mass prayers in the streets of Tunisia? Is it enough to be an opposition party or oppressed party by the old regime to be elected as "democratic”? Why?

Hamid Taqvaee:

I don't think Islamists have much chance to come to power by their own merits. Tunisia is not Lebanon or Gaza and Islamists don't have much social influence there. Tunisia is a secular and modern society and people and their revolution up to now showed no intention to move toward Islamism. I think the only way for Islamic groups to emerge as an alternative for political power in Tunisia is by getting the support of Western states and it is not very likely unless of course Western powers find no other alternative. Nevertheless, considering the general statues of Political Islam in the region and presence of a banned Islamic opposition party in Tunisia one should take the threat of Islamism very seriously.

In answer to the second part of your question I should point out that if a party is in opposition to a dictatorship that does not necessarily make it a democratic and progressive party. Khomeini in Iran was opposing the Shah's regime and was a very reactionary figure. If Iranian people found out the true nature of political Islam in a hard way, Tunisians do not have to. The experience of the Islamic Republic in Iran, Taliban in Afghanistan and Islamist groups in Iraq shows that Political Islam everywhere and in position or opposition is a reactionary force and a major barrier in front of people, especially women, to achieve freedom and equality. People of Tunisia should be aware of the danger of Islamic groups and don't accept any interference of religion and Sharia laws and code in the government, in the educational system, in the law and judiciary system.

Toward Socialism:

The Left worker-communist Party of Iraq is supporting the revolution in Tunisia. What role do you think this party can play in this revolution even though it’s thousands of miles away? How can worker-communism be active and affective?

Hamid Taqvaee:

I think your party can play a very important role. One of the benefits of dictators like Ben Ali for the ruling class is suppression of Communists and revolutionary parties and activists who can, when revolution emerges, lead people toward freedom. Therefore it is the duty of all communists and revolutionary activists all over the world to contribute in any way they can to support, show the way, formulate and articulate the goals and demands of the uprising of people against existing governments in any part of the world. And in the case of the current revolution in Tunisia especially your party can be very effective. You speak the same language, you have a rich experience confronting all kinds of reactionary forces in Iraq, and above all you are representing worker-communism, a radical and active force in Iran and Iraq and all over the world, criticizing and fighting new world order - i.e. post cold war capitalism- and political Islam at the same time. All those factors give your party a unique place in helping the people and revolutionary and radical groups and activists in Tunisia.

· Toward Socialism is the political newspaper of the Left Worker-communist Party of Iraq LWPI, published in Arabic. The interview will show in its special issue dedicated to the revolution of Tunisia and published in Baghdad.

About the Revolutionary Developments in Tunisia!

a communique from the Left Worker-communist Party of Iraq

After the evolvement of struggles of the unemployed, working class, and all oppressed in Tunisia, into mass protests and rallies attended by teachers, lawyers, and youth, and after the expansion of demonstrations to nearby cities and townships especially the capital Tunis, and the joining of trade unions, the government, represented by its oppressive forces, began to shoot live bullets at the demonstrators. It was announced that the death toll reached 60 and many were killed in prisons as well. The mass demonstrations and confrontations had lead to the escape of the dictator Zine El Abidine Ben Ali who was replaced by Mohamed Ghannouchi as president and the imposition of martial law. The army is now protecting the airport and major centers of government, but the streets are still filled with people who are still unconvinced of what is happening and who have formed several councils to manage the situation and protect public property from looting and vandalism of the gangs and looters who took advantage of the current situation.

The current protest in Tunisia is a mass revolution sparked by a toiler who burned himself in a show of protest against the police assault on his means of livelihood. This incident had escalated into flames of protests of thousands of unemployed workers in all of Tunisia and evolved into a demand to topple the regime, release of political prisoners, and wider political freedoms. The masses rose up courageously and led an uprising to topple the despotic tyrant who had fled in panic. But the current ruling regime, which claims to save the country, is but an extension of Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. It is incapable of serving the interests and objectives of the egalitarian revolution of the Tunisian masses. The people did not rise up to form a national-unity nor a constitution based government, or to get some sedative solutions by which the ruling class aim to defuse the revolution and bring Islamists and nationalist reactionaries to power. The Islamic and nationalist forces which, along with the global propaganda media, promote a so-called national-unity rule and consolidation of democracy, want, in fact, to abort the uprising, and to domesticate it into another velvet democratic revolution (jasmine revolution!) and allude the masses into believing that the present government is capable of solving their troubles and problems, especially deprivation, unemployment, discrimination, oppression, inequality, and lack of rights and freedoms.

Our Party asserts that the bourgeois class, which came out after the defection of Ben Ali, will try to make promises to end the situation to peoples favor, but in fact, they aim to kill the revolution and distract the masses with trivial reforms in order to perpetuate their rule. Our Party asserts that the current reactionary Arab nationalists and Islamists, guards of the regime, and army officers, are all incapable to represent the revolution or to lead it towards its goals, and that the solution lies in the hands of the Tunisian working class and millions of toilers and their socialist, leftist, and secularist forces. Our party, while seeing in this revolution a new era of liberty and emancipation to the people in the Arab region, points out that the ultimate emancipation of the masses off their deprivation, abuse, poverty, lack of political freedoms and equality to women, will only be recognized through the victory of socialism. This requires sustaining the struggles to accomplish it by the working class of Tunisia itself.

There lie difficult tasks in front of the revolution, but the most important task at the moment is to block the way on the Tunisian bourgeoisie to deceive the masses by talking about democracy, human rights, coalition governments, and so on, so it could catch its breath and regain its grip with new faces. We emphasize the need to develop means of class struggle for the workers of Tunisia, and to escalate the struggle and reach the level of determining working class political alternatives towards socialism. The formation of councils in some cities and turning them into nuclei for people's councils, is a first step to take control of the situation, but leading the revolution requires a worker-communist party competent of leading the revolution to the victory of the Socialist Republic, is the only alternative for the direct and wide intervention of people and to restore their robbed humanity.

Victory of the Revolution of the masses of Tunisia!
Long live freedom and equality!
Long live the Socialist Republic!

The Left Worker-communist Party of Iraq - LWPI
17 January, 2011

Revolution in Tunisia: Forward and Onward!

English/Français

On Friday 14th January, a month-old mass protest and struggle of the working class and people of Tunisia against unemployment and destitution and the corrupt police state resulted in the hasty flight of Zine El-Abidine Ben Ali, the President of Tunisia. This was the first achievement of the people of Tunisia in their fight for freedom and equality.

This is the beginning of a revolution whose victory cannot be anything short of the establishment of direct rule of citizens based on direct popular participation in administration of the state, complete overthrow of the current government, and the destruction of the oppressive machinery of the state which has been used against the people of Tunisia for more than half a century.

The swift victory of the people Tunisia in forcing Ben Ali, who has been at the helm of a fearsome machinery of terror, to flee, gave rise to optimism and was welcomed by the people of the world, particularly in Arab countries. In some countries, people demonstrated in support of the people of Tunisia, while a shadow of fear fell on the face of the dictators. In Iran the people eagerly watched the scenes similar to their own struggle against the Islamic regime in the 2009 revolution, and sent messages of support and congratulations following the flight of the Tunisian dictator; they felt stronger in their fight against the Islamic regime of Iran.

The start of the Tunisian revolution is an important development with a momentous impact on the region and in particular on the countries of the so-called ‘Arab World’. This revolution must move forward vigorously and achieve its victory. The ruling elite of Tunisia, in co-ordination with Western powers, particularly France and the United States, is trying to ‘put out of sight’ some of the hated figures of the Tunisian state and save the oppressive state machinery, such as the army and other oppressive organs; by inviting some nationalist, Islamist and reactionary elements of the opposition to form a government of ‘national unity’, they are trying to maintain and justify the current system of oppression and exploitation. The code name for this operation is the ‘Jasmine Revolution’, which is supposedly based on the model of the Velvet Revolution. By passing the power between different groups of the ruling class, the ruling elite aims to defeat the people’s revolution in Tunisia.

The people of Tunisia must advance their revolution; they must put forward such demands as the unconditional release of political prisoners, public trial of Ben Ali and all those responsible for the recent killings, an end to Marshal Law, abolition of all the oppressive organs of the state, publication of the all the documents of the theft and embezzlement by top government officials, direct and popular participation in all decision- making in industries, government organisations, universities and neighbourhoods, unconditional freedom of expression, strike, organisation and political activities, immediate rise in pay levels, etc. No government - ‘national unity’ or otherwise - has any legitimacy unless it recognises the above demands. Any government that fails to recognise these demands would be deemed as the continuation of the old dictatorship and consequently must stand aside.

Moving forward and achieving these demands is only possible by the mass organisation of the working class and people of Tunisia.

We are for the advance and comprehensive victory of the people of Tunisia; their victory will be a victory for the people of world, including the people Iran.

Worker-communist Party of Iran
16 January 2011

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Français

Révolution en Tunisie : En avant ! En avant !

Le vendredi 14 janvier, un mois de protestations et de luttes de la classe ouvrière et du peuple de Tunisie contre le chômage, la misère et l'Etat policier corrompu a conduit à la fuite précipitée de Zine El-Abidine Ben Ali, le président de Tunisie. Ce fut la première réalisation du peuple de Tunisie dans sa lutte pour la liberté et l'égalité.

C'est le début d'une révolution dont la victoire ne peut être que l'établissement du pouvoir direct des citoyens basé sur la participation populaire dans l'administration de l'Etat, le renversement complet de l'actuel gouvernement et la destruction de la machine répressive d'Etat utilisée contre le peuple de Tunisie depuis plus d'un demi-siècle.

La rapide victoire des gens de Tunisie pour forcer Ben Ali, qui était à la tête d'une redoutable machine de terreur, à fuir, pousse à l'optimisme et a été saluée par les peuples du monde en particulier dans les pays arabes. Dans plusieurs pays, les gens ont manifesté pour soutenir le peuple de Tunisie, alors que l'ombre de la peur plane sur la tête des dictateurs. En Iran, les gens se précipitaient pour regarder ces scènes similaires à celles de leur propre lutte contre le régime islamique lors de la révolution de 2009, et envoyaient des messages de soutien et de salutations après la fuite du dictateur tunisien ; ils se sentent plus forts pour leur lutte contre le régime islamique d'Iran.

Le début de la révolution tunisienne est événement important avec un impact considérable dans la région et en particulier dans les pays de ce qui est appelé le “monde arabe”. Cette révolution doit vigoureusement aller de l'avant et réaliser sa victoire. L'élite dirigeante de Tunisie, en coordination avec les puissances occidentales, en particulier la France et les Etats-Unis, tente de mettre “hors de la vue” quelques uns des visages les plus haïs de l'Etat tunisien et de sauver la machine répressive d'Etat, comme l'armée et autres organes de répression, en invitant quelques nationalistes, islamistes et éléments réactionnaires de l'opposition pour former un gouvernement “d'unité nationale”, ils tentent de maintenir et de justifier l'actuel système d'oppression et d'exploitation. Le nom de code de cette opération est celui de “révolution du jasmin”, supposée être basée sur le modèle de la révolution de velours. En transférant le pouvoir entre différents groupes de la classe dirigeante, le but de l'élite au pouvoir est de provoquer la défaite de la révolution du peuple en Tunisie.

La population de Tunisie doit faire avancer sa révolution ; en mettant en avant des revendications comme la libération inconditionnelle des prisonniers politiques, le jugement public de Ben Ali et de tous ceux qui sont responsables des récents assassinats, la fin de la loi martiale, l'abolition des organes répressifs de l'Etat, la publication de tous les documents concernant le pillage et les détournements de fond par les hauts fonctionnaires du gouvernement, la participation directe et populaire dans toutes les prises de décision dans les industries, les organisations gouvernementales, les universités et les quartiers, la liberté inconditionnelle d'expression, de grève, d'organisation et d'activités politiques, la hausse immédiate des salaires, etc. Aucun gouvernement, qu'il se nomme “d'unité nationale” ou autrement, n'aura aucune légitimité pour diriger tant qu'il ne reconnaîtra pas ces revendications. Tout gouvernement qui refusera d'accepter ces revendications sera considéré comme la continuité de l'ancienne dictature et par conséquent ne pourra être reconnu.

Aller de l'avant et obtenir ces revendications ne sera possible que par l'organisation de masse de la classe ouvrière et de la population de Tunisie.

Nous sommes pour l'avancée et la victoire complète de la population de Tunisie ; sa victoire sera une victoire pour les peuples du monde, dont le peuple d'Iran.


Parti Communiste-Ouvrier d'Iran
16 Janvier 2011